Canada’s Only True Desert

The media, governments, and tourism marketers have long been promoting the South Okanagan region around Osoyoos, BC, as Canada’s only true desert — even though Osoyoos is semi-arid (or semi-desert if you prefer). As we shall see below, it is not a “true desert” by any known scientific definition.

osoyoos2

Osoyoos, British Columbia

Others have tried this type of scam before, but few with the success of Osoyoos.

One tourist website I stumbled across a number of years ago started out by admitting that Lillooet (another semi-arid town) receives about 330 mm (13 inches) of precipitation per year at the official weather station, but then went on to claim that other areas of the valley where no weather stations have ever existed actually received less than 50 mm (2 inches). Don’t ask me how they would know that when no one was measuring it. Anyway, this would surely put the town in desert territory since  North America’s driest location — Death Valley, California — receives more than that. It seems that cooler heads have prevailed because this “information” has been scrubbed from the internet.

Inaccurate statistics placed on the internet become stubborn obstacles to truth long after they’ve been thoroughly debunked. One example being Della Falls on Vancouver Island, which has long been known as Canada’s tallest waterfall. Even a government website listed it as such until recently when some waterfall enthusiasts measured the waterfall. This bogus statistic is slowing being scrubbed from the internet and from government sources, but the misinformation lingers in the minds of the public.

Back to “Canada’s only true desert” again. There are dozens of websites promoting the false narrative that Osoyoos is Canada’s only desert such as this, this, this, and this. Yes, you read that last story right – they actually claim there are tarantulas living there, which, of course, is complete horsefeathers! And yet this #FakeNews has spread all the way to Germany.

Equally false is the statement about the area being part of the Sonoran Desert. Not to be outdone, even the federal and provincial governments got into the act, calling this area part of the Great Basin Desert.

osoyoosbarn

Those claims that Osoyoos is Canada’s only true desert and the northern extent of the Sonoran Desert are surprisingly easy to falsify.  The Sonoran Desert doesn’t even make it half way up Nevada, so that’s easy to debunk, but desert does exist into Washington State, and as we will see shortly, into British Columbia as well – just not Osoyoos.

The accepted definition of a desert is an area where the aridity index is less than 0.2 (think of it as evaporation being five times higher than precipitation); this index is calculated by taking the precipitation and dividing it by the potential evapotranspiration (similar to evaporation).

Desert (arid) is one of four dry climate classifications, accounting for 47% of the planet’s landmass.

dryarid

Several different methods and formulas exist for determining the aridity. The best one is the Penman-Monteith method because it takes into account variables such as wind, humidity, sunshine, and air pressure.

Let’s look at the formula for a second.

asdf

Ahhh. Okay, let’s move on.

Less sophisticated methods are more often used to estimate potential evapotranspiration because the only variables available for most places are temperature and precipitation.

One of the more popular methods for determining aridity is the one employed by the Köppen climate classification. I will spare you the formula, but it yields similar results, placing Osoyoos in the wetter half of the semi-arid category. The Penman-Monteith method yields a more arid result, but at just over 0.28, still lands solidly within the semi-arid zone.

You might be saying to yourself at this point that Osoyoos might not be a true desert, but it’s the most arid place in Canada. After all, aridity is a function of both temperature and precipitation, and Osoyoos is both hot and dry. Temperature is an important component of aridity which is why Tuscon, Arizona is much more arid than Barrow, Alaska despite the fact that it gets more precipitation.

Similarly, Osoyoos is more arid than the far north for the same reason, but Osoyoos is not the most arid place in British Columbia. This alone surprises people who have been brainwashed into believing that Osoyoos is the driest place in Canada. Places drier than Osoyoos in Canada include the prairies around Medicine Hat, Kamloops, Merritt, Spences Bridge, the Fraser Canyon north of Lillooet, and parts of the Chilcotin from Kleena Kleene to the Fraser river. Drier (less precipitation), but not necessarily more arid.

The driest place of all is Ashcroft, which averages just over 200 mm (8″) per year. By comparison, Osoyoos averages 323 mm (12.7″) per year. This is a substantial inequality that the marginal temperature difference cannot overcome.

Using either of the methods above places Ashcroft in the arid category. The graph below shows the aridity of various places in Canada using the Penman-Monteith method.

aridityincanada2

The Köppen climate classification also locates Ashcroft in the arid or desert category, and this  map on Wikipedia confirms that.

So it is true that true desert exists in Canada, but it’s located 230 km to the northwest of Osoyoos in the village of Ashcroft. That’s why aliens, when they choose to visit us, crash in the Ashcroft area, and as we all know, UFOs always crash in “true deserts.” The X-files has documented such an event recently near Ashcroft.

xfiles1 xfiles2 xfiles3

About Questioning The Data

I'm interested in analyzing popular claims made in the media, science, popular culture, and advertising that might not be true. https://questioningthedata.wordpress.com/
This entry was posted in Climate and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

178 Responses to Canada’s Only True Desert

  1. John says:

    How can you say that Ashcroft has an arid or desert climate and averages just over 200mm a year when there isn’t a climate station there to give us this information?

    • Hi John, Ashcroft has had several weather stations over the years, covering 70 years from 1924 to the present. The current automated weather station has been in operation since 2010 with precipitation data missing until 2014. Similarly, Osoyoos has had several weather stations over the years from 1954 to the present, for a total of 62 years. The only weather station in operation today is the automated station which has been in operation since 1990, though it didn’t start recording precipitation with any sort of accuracy until recently.

      That’s the downside of modern automated weather stations tasked with measuring precipitation — they are notoriously inaccurate and subject to frequent errors and missing data points. That’s why precipitation is derived from the abandoned manual stations while wind and humidity data are extracted from the automated station for both Osoyoos and Ashcroft.

      In 2010, an automated weather station was also installed at Ashcroft. This is interesting, not only because it is the first time since 1989 that weather data is available for that village, but also because it is the first time that wind speed and humidity have been measured. If you recall, these two variables are needed in order to accurately calculate aridity. In addition, we need daily minimum and maximum temperature, hours of sunshine, and precipitation.

      The problem with this new station – like so many automated weather stations today – is that it has a lot of missing precipitation data. The other hole in our data set is the hours of sunshine. I figure that since Ashcroft is between 25 and 30% drier than Kamloops, it would be a safe to add 5% to the Kamloops numbers as a means of estimating Ashcroft.

      Using the past two years of data along with this sunshine estimate, I arrived a number very similar to Kamloops as far as Potential Evapo-Transpiration (PET) level. While Ashcroft gets more sunshine, and more temperature extremes, the higher windspeeds at Kamloops balances out the evaporation rate difference.

      Using the data and assumptions above, the PET for Ashcroft is 974.5mm of evaporation/year, so aridity comes down to dividing the actual precipitation by this number.

      Since we have little precipitation data in Ashcroft since the 1980s, we can deduce a number from older data.

      Looking at EC database, we observe the following data sets:

      Ashcroft = 187.0 mm ( 31 years between 1924 and 1970)
      Ashcroft = 206.3mm (6 years between 1973 and 1980)
      Ashcroft North = 209.7 mm (5 years between 1980 and 1985)

      Of course, precipitation is a huge factor when determining aridity, so I spent time time trying various ways of accurately calculating this figure.

      Method #1: Obtaining a weighted average, we get 192.7 mm/year.
      Aridity Index = 0.1977; Status: arid, but barely

      Method #2: Compare the data from the 70s and 80s to Kamloops and scale to today’s levels: 204.8 mm
      Aridity Index = 0.21; Status: semi-arid

      Method #3: Use the data from the 1924-1970 (when BC was much drier than it is today): 187 mm
      Aridity Index = 0.19; Status: arid.

      Method #4: Using the Köppen climate classification method (google it to see how it works). According this data as shown on the Köppen climate classification map, Ashcroft is a true desert even using the figure arrived at in method #2 above.

      So it’s not 100% certain that Ashcroft is a true desert, but it is by far the driest place in BC, and thus the most arid and desert-like place in the province. The second most arid place in BC is Spences Bridge, which I left off the chart for simplicity sake.

    • Judan, that’s an interesting comment that I will address in a future article. The short answer is that it’s debatable as to which city is the warmest in Canada. It really depends on who you define your terms. Windsor, ON has the warmest summers in Canada and Victoria, BC has the warmest winters in Canada.

  2. John says:

    Thanks for the detailed reply. You’ve done a good job at trying to get the most out of the limited data available. I’m glad to hear that a new climate station has been installed there.

    What I’m really intersted to know is how does one view the old climate station data for Ashcroft?

  3. Pingback: The Sunshine Tax | Questioning The Data

  4. Roger says:

    Now I will have to stop telling people I have been to the northern most desert in the world, based on the aridity index, referring to Carcross Desert, Yukon. Off to Ashcroft to re-establish my credibility. Thanks for the info..

  5. Les Robertson says:

    you might check Empress Alberta its drier then Osoyoos just a bit more precip. then Ashcroft but more sun and wind a higher evaporation rate summer heat too

    • Empress is slightly less arid than Medicine Hat even though it’s slightly drier. The reason being that it’s colder. Temperature is a large factor with evaporation. So is wind, but so is relative humidity, and BC has significantly drier air than Alberta during the summer months. As for sunshine, Alberta is sunny in the winter, but BC is just as sunny during the summer months, and that’s when it has the largest impact on aridity.

      Note that Empress gets 311.6mm/year while Ashcroft gets just over 200mm. That’s a significant difference that can’t easily be overcome by other factors like wind.

  6. Jona says:

    I tryly love you site.. Pleasant collors & theme. Diid yyou develop this webb sitte yourself?

    Please reply ack aas I’m hopping too cdeate my oown persoonal sire aand woulod love too know where
    youu gott thi from oor juhst wha thee heme iss called. Thanks!
    I’ve beesn surfiing online greater thn three hours
    today, buut I nrver discovered anny attention-grabbing article like yours.
    It’s lovely vaalue enhough ffor me. Personally, iff alll wweb ownerrs andd blogger mawde good content material as youu did, thhe
    neet wil likely bbe mjch more usefull thzn evber
    before. It’s the bst tiume too makee somee planss forr tthe future and it’s tjme too bbe happy.

    I’ve redad this polst annd if I couldd I dewsire too suggest youu ffew inteesting thinngs or suggestions.
    Perhaps yyou could write nexct articles refcerring
    too thjis article. I wizh too read eben morre things about it!

  7. Les Robertson says:

    I,m not sure where you get your info…. Empress is not as dry as Ashcroft but the difference is not as great as you say from what i have seen . Southern Alberta gets more sunshine in the summer then ANY place in BC….compare Kamloops and Medicine Hat. Thunderstorms give Med Hat a bit more rain but still has more sun. Mannyberries more sun then Medicine Hat , Aden and Masinasin get more heat then Medicine Hat… both are pretty small places like Spences Bridge. There is a culture in BC to brag about there weather….. about tourism ??? Compare average temps in summer June July August at Medicine Hat and Kelownia airports. Medicine Hat is warmer. Also drier air in BC then Alberta in summer is very questionable. Summer Chinooks are very dry. Southern Alberta has the highest evaporation rate in Canada all things being considered.

    • Medicine Hat and Empress are very dry, but even Empress gets 50% more precipitation than Ashcroft. Even though the evaporation rate might higher, that’s a gap it cannot close. I did use monthly data for wind, sunshine, temperature, and humidity to calculate the results, so I think the chart is relatively correct. Perhaps Empress or some such place is drier, perhaps like that of Osoyoos in terms of aridity, but still a far cry from Ashcroft.

      Medicine Hat is the 2nd sunniest city in Canada during the summer (only Yellowknife with over 1000 hours gets more sunshine hours). Medicine Hat gets 983 hours. This compares to 927 at Lethbridge, 868 at Calgary, 867 at Victoria, 854 at Vernon, 845 at Kamloops and Saskatoon, and 824 at Kelowna.

      At the other end of the scale, we have Stewart, BC, with 409 hours.

      Yes, Medicine Hat gets more sunshine than Kamloops and Ashcroft, but it’s not just sunshine that matters. Rather, it’s the temperature in the open (or in the sun). Ashcroft is significantly hotter during the summer months than Medicine Hat. During the daytime, it’s 3 degrees hotter on average.

      Medicine Hat might have 15% more sunshine hours than Ashcroft, but the air is much cooler and the relative humidity is also higher. We’re talking 35% in Medicine Hat during the day in July verses 30% at Ashcroft.

      Another factor is wind. Medcine hat has an average windspeed of 12km/h in July versus only 9km/h for Kamloops (Ashcroft is similar). That definitely favours Medicine Hat, but this along with the extra sunshine is not enough to make up the difference for being more cooler and more humid.

  8. Les Robertson says:

    Some questions and corrections Yes, Yellowknife does have more hours of Sunshine in summer you are correct on that . Medicine Hat has a greater amount of sunshine that is possible….. Yellowknife .being in the far north the summer days are longer .In summer Medicine Hat has a higher % of sunlight about 72% if I recall correctly….. over Yellowknife. The 3 degree difference you claim for Kamloops being warmer on the average is incorrect. I,m talking records from both airports June July August Kamloops 25.1, 28.9, 28.3, Medicine Hat 23.4, 27.5, 27.0 thats a average of less then 2 degrees. Also the extreme humidex for Medicine Hat is considerably less then Kamloops which indicates in extreme heat the humidity in Kamloops would be higher. I have read in different agricultural papers over the years The Palliser triangle has the highest evaporation in Canada, now that might take winter into consideration as well .I have travelled all these places being discussed in all seasons many times. I have seen -20 in Osooyos with wind blowing cold but not typical. Medicine Hat +18 in winter warm but not typical. We all know Osoyoos or even Kamloops has warmer climate then southern Alberta. What people don,t understand you can get a hot summer chinook wind bringing the temperature up 30c before the sun even comes up and then cool to 20 and go back up again . I might add on this humidex thing Winnipeg has more days with humidex over 30c then Kamloops that fact suprised me . There are a lot of wrong info out about weather based on opinions not fact . We do know Osoyoos is NOT a desert. Really there is no true deserts in Canada in the classic sense. There is a culture in BC to brag about and exaggerate the qualities of there climate which is rated #3 in Canada

    • Hi there. Just a few clarifications. When I was talking about the degree difference, I was thinking of Ashcroft, which is 1.3 degrees warmer than Kamloops in July and just over 1 degree Celcius for the other two summer months. You can calculate this by looking at the past 5 years of data. Over that time Ashcroft has averaged 31.7C in July against Kamloops’ 30.4C. Now, since the 30 year average is lower than that, you have to subtract 1.5C, which brings you to an average of 30.2C.

      As for the extreme humdex, it’s pretty much useless. I mean, the highest humidex ever recorded in Canada is supposedly Castlegar, BC, and guess what, no one in their right mind would say Castlegar is anywhere as humid as southern Ontario… or Manitoba for that matter.

      Extremes mean nothing. The extreme coldest temperatures ever recorded in Canada were in the Yukon even though the Yukon is the mildest territory in Canada. The hottest temperature ever recorded in Canada occurred in Saskatchwan even though BC has much hotter summers.

      All that matters is averages, and guess what, the average afternoon relative humidity in Kamloops in July is 33.5%. Medicine Hat averages 36.6% in July. Ashcroft is much drier than either of those. We’re talking somewhere around 25.6% (I have only run a single year of comparison, but you get the idea).

      The Palliser triangle might have the highest evaporation in Canada because of the wind, but I suspect that it’s much like the “osoyoos is Canada’s only desert” claim, in that it might be urban legend more than anything.

      But even if we grant that it’s true, Ashcroft is much more arid because it’s much drier in terms of precipitation (it’s also much windier than most of southern BC including the likes of Osoyoos).

      What constitutes a desert is somewhat subjective, but if there is a desert in Canada it’s in Ashcroft.

      I absolutely agree with you that the quality of climate in BC is exaggerated, especially in the Okanagan Valley. I find the winters utterly depressing with almost no sunshine for two months. I’d much rather have colder winters with more sunshine. I also find the summers too hot.

    • Dave Parsons says:

      In actuality, Ashcroft -virtually- never even –has– a humidex reading because “both” the dewpoints and relative humidity are remarkably low in the summer. In fact, Ashcroft is the one place that often has “near winter dry air” –even in the summer– when the daytime heat is the most searing during dry heat waves. Dewpoints “below the freezing mark” (zero degrees C) are common in summer when temperatures are over 30 degrees C;
      –no kidding– this makes the ‘average’ daytime relative humidity around a meagre 12% in Ashcroft during hot spells! It’s WAY less than 30%. “Questioning the data” people; please look at this you might be surprised. Southern Ontario:– read-em’ and weep. So, yes, when combined with only 8 inches of precipitation per year, and some wind, (although less than the prairies), does classify Ashcroft as a true desert. Weather “networkians,” if you don’t believe me about the super low summer dewpoints (much of the time anyways) check the numbers, because further more, it’s during “cool” periods when the -dewpoints- are “actually higher” in Ashcroft in summer!! (although still quite low).This is where the overall ‘30%’ number comes from, in the total statistics. Suzanne Leonard and Chris Mei, take a summer trip to Ashcroft some time, hmm hmm, you’ll be in store for an “alien treat,” asides from the aliens that land in true deserts. On a final note, it is between 8 and 9 months of the year that enjoy ‘nice’ temperatures in the Ashcroft valley as well, as winters, although occasionally brisk, are exceedingly short by Canadian Standards. Again, weather network, read-em’ and weep! Cheers.

  9. Alex says:

    Hello, I just happened about your website and find it very interesting. Could you please let me know the top 5 cities in SE and SW Ontario with the least humidity. Looking at places to retire to. And the overall top 3 least humid in Ontario. Thanking you in advance.

    • Hi Alex, I take it that you are thinking of humidity in the summer that drives up the humidex values? Southeastern Ontario is the most humid place in Canada. That would be the area around Windsor. Because of those high humidex values, a heat advisory is not triggered until the humidex hits 42°C. The rest of southern Ontario will get a heat advisory at 40°C while the north will have a heat advisory in effect at 36°C.

      Anything close to the lakes in southern Ontario will have higher humidity, although the Toronto Island airport is cooled off significantly because it’s surrounded by water. I would say that somewhere more inland from the lakes like London would be your best bet.

      The driest air would be in the north west area of the province. The only weather station with data is Big Trout Lake.

      Number of days per year with a humidex >=40:

      WINDSOR A = 7.22 days
      TORONTO BUTTONVILLE A = 4.41 days
      TORONTO LESTER B. PEARSON INT’L A = 4.1 days
      HAMILTON A = 3 days
      OTTAWA MACDONALD-CARTIER INT’L A = 2.66 days
      LONDON INT’L AIRPORT = 2.53 days
      PETAWAWA A = 2.25 days
      PETERBOROUGH A = 2.02 days
      TRENTON A = 1.63 days
      TORONTO ISLAND A = 1.54 days
      THUNDER BAY A = 1.2 days
      KINGSTON A = 1 days
      SAULT STE MARIE A = 0.86 days
      WIARTON A = 0.83 days
      KENORA A = 0.6 days
      TIMMINS VICTOR POWER A = 0.6 days
      SIOUX LOOKOUT A = 0.56 days
      GORE BAY A = 0.52 days
      KAPUSKASING A = 0.5 days
      NORTH BAY A = 0.44 days
      SUDBURY A = 0.4 days
      GERALDTON A = 0.24 days
      BIG TROUT LAKE = 0 days

      Number of days per year with a humidex >=35:

      WINDSOR A = 29.9 days
      HAMILTON A = 21.73 days
      TORONTO BUTTONVILLE A = 19.8 days
      TORONTO LESTER B. PEARSON INT’L A = 18.41 days
      LONDON INT’L AIRPORT = 18.14 days
      PETERBOROUGH A = 14.21 days
      OTTAWA MACDONALD-CARTIER INT’L A = 13.97 days
      TRENTON A = 13.89 days
      TORONTO ISLAND A = 13.63 days
      PETAWAWA A = 13.28 days
      KINGSTON A = 8.84 days
      WIARTON A = 8.3 days
      SAULT STE MARIE A = 7.67 days
      THUNDER BAY A = 6.8 days
      GORE BAY A = 5.57 days
      KAPUSKASING A = 5.23 days
      KENORA A = 5.22 days
      SUDBURY A = 5.21 days
      TIMMINS VICTOR POWER A = 4.97 days
      SIOUX LOOKOUT A = 4.83 days
      NORTH BAY A = 4.26 days
      GERALDTON A = 2.75 days
      BIG TROUT LAKE = 0.82 days

      • Alex says:

        Thank you so much for your very detailed answer…really appreciate it. I guess there is not many drier places to escape to in Ontario unless of course we go up North and then we have the winters 🙂

  10. thedesertoracle says:

    Hello and thanks for this interesting account of semi-desert locations in Canada. The U.S. desert absorbs a substantial population of Canadians each winter (mostly from BC and Alberta), and we are happy to have them as they behave so much better than the Americans. And quite a few of us who live in the Mojave Desert tend to escape north when the worst of summer hits here.

    Should note for the record, however, that the Sonoran Desert (land of the saguaro) reaches halfway up in southern Arizona … Nevada has a spot of the Mojave Desert at its southern tip, but the majority of the state is the same dry/cold Great Basin Desert that covers Eastern Oregon.

  11. Chasity says:

    Howdy just wanted to give you a quick head up and let you know a
    few of thee image aren’t loading properly. I’m nott sure why but I think its a
    linkoing issue. I’ve tried it in twoo different
    internet browsers and both show the same results.

  12. Joe says:

    Thanks for this info. What’s the annual sunshine hours for those bc locations?

    • Sunshine hours have never been recorded in Ashcroft, but Kamloops to the east averages 2080 hours per year. Ashcroft is probably sunnier given that it’s quite a bit drier, so maybe close to 2200 hours, although, precipitation does not always correlate with sunshine hours.

      For example, Osoyoos averages 1945 hours of sunshine per year while Victoria, which gets about twice the annual precipitation as Osoyoos is tried with Cranbrook as the sunniest place in the province with 2200 hours of sunshine annually.

      • Joe says:

        Thanks very much. Is Ashecroft also sunnier and less snowier in winter than Okanagan and the rest of bcs summer sunshine locations? I’ve been reading how cloudy and dreary most of southern Bc is compared to Alberta sk and Mb. In fact southern Ontario gets more sun than any place in southern Bc.

      • Joe says:

        Which BC city or area has the highest winter sunshine since the Okanagan valley and other bc so called sunny spots are dark and dreary.

    • Joe, check out this map showing sunshine hours: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.7585883,-126.8830914,1780469m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!6m1!1s1ctInTLEvrthqnacsdXwQpX5NrsM?hl=en

      The Chilcotin area of the BC is the sunniest part of the province in the winter (Anahim Lake, Tatlayoko Lake, Tatla Lake, etc.). That’s the area in white and red. After that it’s the Peace River area (Fort St. John, Dawson Creek, etc.), but then you have to deal with the bitter cold.

      Now, parts of the Chilcotin are quite cold in the winter like Anahim Lake, BUT some areas like Tatlayoko Lake and Nemiah/Chilko Lake are as mild as the Okanagan in the winter, but with lots of sunshine! That’s why (in my view), the Nemiah Valley has the nicest weather in all of Canada.

      • Joe says:

        Warmer than lake cowichan and Vancouver island or close enough?

        • Much colder than Lake Cowichan or Vancouver, etc, but mild by interior standards. It it’s far drier and sunnier than the coast in the winter, and very nice because the precipitation comes down largely as snow. It might be -5C in Tatlayoko Lake, and -30C in Tatla Lake some 30km away, and that’s a huge difference when spending time outside playing pond hockey. Meanwhile, on Vancouver Island, you’re stuck in +5 and heavy rain, so no skating for you outdoors.

      • Joe says:

        Im guessing that valley is also very sunny dry even in summer and hot.

      • Fairly mild summers because of the higher elevation. Quite cool at night (around 5C as a low in July with highs in the mid 20s). Yes, quite dry year-round.

      • Joe says:

        Im liking the sounds of it but from the sunshine map there isnt much cities with population around.

      • Joe says:

        Im liking the sounds of it but from the sunshine map there arent much cities
        Or population around.
        Maybe the lowest hills and valleys are warmer/milder

      • Joe says:

        Thanks still cant get over canadas great secret

  13. Catherine Novis says:

    How’ve ignorant are you and everyone who posted a reply, not to mention everyone and every ngo & governmental body you mention? Obviously your publication does not attract the attention of either intellectuals or scientists.
    Strictly speaking, that is geologically, Canada’s only true & scientifically recognised desert is the Arctic, part of the Arctic polar desert, which the world’s second largest desert (Antarctic is largest) at 5.4 million square miles. I was waiting for this incontestable fact to be mentioned in the above article; but alas, reporting truth is apparently less important than good storytelling. Shame on you all!

    • Joe says:

      Who gives two lemons about the Arctic or Antarctic. They are irrelevant. If you care so much that they are a desert you should go live there and shut up. No one cares about cold deserts. No one except you. Now go away.

      • Catherine Novis says:

        Pearls of wisdom, from the mouth of a true humanitarian and intellectual.
        Because really, what scientific research is conducted in the Antarctic and Arctic?
        And there’s no environmental devastation, or melting polar ice caps & species eradication, so who really does care?
        Thanks for demonstrating that real way to prove one’s worth and to win a debate is through insults, not facts.
        Viva Les Alternative Facts!
        Live long and prosper:-)

    • The arctic is not actually a desert. Yes, Eureka, Nunavut is the driest place in Canada with a mere 79mm of precipitation, but it’s so cold there that there’s hardly any evaporation, so when you divide the total precipitation by the total evaporation, you do not get a low enough number to classify it as desert.

    • Dave Parsons says:

      The Atacama Desert of Chile is even drier than either polar desert Catherine, but it’s near the Equator! Hah! It’s an area in South America where “Mars” type climatic studies are implemented due to the extreme dryness; but, it’s even quite hot there (77 Degrees Fahrenheit, or 25 Degrees Celsius, annual average temperature) despite the generally higher elevations in some Atacama locations. Therefore, binary oppositional thinking goes down the tube. It’s mostly about atmospheric -processes-… not just heat or cold that contributes to, and constitutes, the driest deserts on Earth.

  14. Catherine Novis says:

    Correction to my above post: area of the Arctic Desert should read 5.4 million square km, not miles. Apologies for autocorrect.

  15. Joe says:

    When someone comes on here with this air of pompousness and starts acting all holier than thow criticizing and nitpicking needlessly, offending the op and disrupting the peace of the post by useless information they get what they deserve. It’s all in the presentation lady and you failed miserably.
    Have some courtesy and tact next time it goes a long way not the bubble you seem to be living in.

    • Catherine Novis says:

      It’s not pompous or “holier than thou” if it’s true:
      https://geology.com/records/largest-desert.shtml
      The Largest Desert:
      The two largest deserts on Earth are in the polar areas. The Antarctic Polar Desert covers the continent of Antarctica and has a size of about 5.5 million square miles. The second-largest desert is the Arctic Polar Desert. It extends over parts of Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia. It has a surface area of about 5.4 million square miles.

      • There’s desert and there’s desert. There are a lot of places in the world that claim to be deserts which aren’t really by any scientific definition out there. In the context of this article, desert = arid.

        Given the fact that Eureka, Nunavut gets a mere 79.1 mm per year (by far the driest spot in the Canadian Arctic), the temperature is very cold, even in summer, so there’s hardly any evaporation to speak of. I will look into the numbers later when I have time and report back.

        • CAGEN says:

          The system of Aridity Index (AI) to which you are referring is Koppen’s Climate Classification.
          It is largely outdated, but since it’s your chosen formula, we shall apply it.

          Unfortunately, as you supply neither the average mean annual temperature (T) of Ashcroft, nor Ashcroft’s R value, but only Ashcroft’s mean annual precipitation of 200mm, we are unable to work out Ashcroft’s Koppen AI. We only have your word that it is more arid than Eureka.
          Nor do you if Ashcroft’s precipitation occurs in the colder months, the warmer months, or is evenly distributed.
          However, for your application of the formula to yield a rating of Arid for Ashcroft, the annual average temperature would have to be below 6C, assuming precipitation occurs mainly in the warmer months. I have taken the liberty of using P/10 to represent annual precipitation in cm, since it actually measured in mm.
          P/10 x 2 = 200/10 x 2 = 40
          (40 – 28)/2 = 6
          So let’s give Ashcroft the benefit of the doubt, and say it’s mean annual temperature is 5C.

          However, your application of the formula for Eureka is skewed.
          Using the formula you mention, 2 x T + 28, we get this: 2 x -15.5 = -31 + 28 = -3
          I am pretty sure that -3 is less than twice 7.91 (P/10x 2), or 15.82.
          That would mean Eureka is, by your application of the formula, well and truly classified as ‘arid’.

          However, I am not sure from where you get twice 7.91 (P/10 x 2). That’s not in the formula.
          The formula on the wikipedia link you give is this:
          Arid regions are defined as those where annual rainfall accumulation (in centimetres) is less than R/2, where R = 2 x T + 28 if rainfall occurs mainly in the hot season.
          Applying this formula likewise to an assumed annual temperature of 5C for Ashcroft (less than 6C, as was stated above), we get this:
          2 x 5 = 10 + 28 = 38
          Therefore R = 38, and R/2 = 19.
          Annual rainfall in Ashcroft is definitely above 19cm (20cm, didn’t you say?), so would be not classed as ‘arid’ within Koppen’s Aridity Index. For Ashcroft to be classified as ‘arid’ using the formula applied properly, R would have to equal 37 or less. This would mean the average temperature would have to be 4.5C or lower. Perhaps it is. I am not debating whether Ashcroft is a desert or not. Simply that it is not Canada’s only desert.
          Applying the above formula to Eureka, and not the strange one you inserted, gives us: R = -3, and R/2 = -6.

          Of course, polar deserts don’t really have a ‘hot season’, do they? But the summers do average temperatures from 0-10C, so it is certainly warmer than the winter. In fact, they don’t really even have rainfall either, but do have precipitation.
          It is worth noting even the language in that this formula is set up intuitively for non-polar regions, and is inapplicable to polar conditions.

          As is obvious from the result, this formula cannot be applied to Eureka, because you cannot have annual rainfall that is a negative number.
          The Aridity Index cannot be applied to polar climates because water is in an unavailable, frozen state, with temperatures averaging below -10C.
          The result of applying this formula inappropriately to polar deserts requires negative precipitation, which is, of course, impossible.
          That does not mean Polar Deserts cannot be classified as arid: it simply means their aridity cannot be measured using the same criteria as temperate climates.
          “The Arctic and Antarctic contain polar deserts…Arid environments occur at the poles, along the equator, on mountains, plateaus, below sea level, along coasts, and within mid-continents. They may be hot or cold climate types.”

          http://www.politicalavenue.com/freepoliticalebooks/Encyclopedia_of_World_Climatology_POLITICALAVENUE_dot_COM.pdf pg.85-86

          In Koppen’s system, the world is divided into 5 climate zones, and in only one of these zones (B), does the AI apply. The other 4 climate zones are defined by temperature alone, including the Polar zone (E).
          One cannot pick and chose to apply formulas when they are neither applicable nor appropriate.

          “Köppen’s classification is based on a subdivision of terrestrial climates into five major types, which are represented by the capital letters A, B, C, D, and E. Each of these climate types except for B is defined by temperature criteria. Type B designates climates in which the controlling factor on vegetation is dryness (rather than coldness). Type E climates (the coldest) are conventionally divided into tundra (ET) and snow/ice climates (EF).”
          https://www.britannica.com/science/Koppen-climate-classification

          And here, you can see that Koppen’s ‘E’ zones are not even mentioned in the below table, because the formula does not apply:

          Table K1 Climatic regions classification

          Full humid Semihumid Semiarid Arid

          Af As/Aw
          Cf Cs/Cw BS BW
          Df Ds/Dw

          http://www.politicalavenue.com/freepoliticalebooks/Encyclopedia_of_World_Climatology_POLITICALAVENUE_dot_COM.pdf pg. 442

          This table also demonstrates that Polar regions are in a separate classification to temperate humid/arid classifications:

          Table C3
          Correspondence between climatic and vegetation types

          Climate Vegetation type name Vegetation

          Rainy tropical Malayan Evergreen rain forest

          Subhumid tropical Nicaraguan Deciduous or monsoon forest

                           Timoran                Savanna forest or woodland
          
                                Visayan               Tropic grassland
          

          Warm semiarid Tampicoan Thorn forest, thorn scrub

                               Tamaulipan         Desert savanna, wetter parts
          

          Warm arid Tamaulipan Desert savanna, drier parts

                           Sonoran                Subtropic desert
          
                           Tripolian              Short grass; desert grass
          

          Hyperarid Atacaman “Barren” desert

          Rainy subtropical Kyushun Warm temperate rain forest

                            Argentinean           Prairie
          

          Summer-dry subtropical Mediterranean Sclerophyll woodland and scrub

          Rainy marine Tasman Subantarctic forest

          Wet-winter temperate Oregonian Conifer forest

          Rainy temperate. Virginian Mixed deciduous and conifer forest

          Cool semiarid Patagonian Cold desert, wetter parts

          Cool arid Patagonian Cold desert, drier parts

          Subpolar Alaskan Taiga forest

          Polar Aleutian Tundra and polar barrens

          After Putnam et al. (1960).

          http://www.politicalavenue.com/freepoliticalebooks/Encyclopedia_of_World_Climatology_POLITICALAVENUE_dot_COM.pdf pg. 219

          • Steve Arstad says:

            This is interesting stuff. I’m an Okanagan reporter and would like to talk to you about these ideas. Can you give me a call or drop me an email?

        • Dave Parsons says:

          Hey buddy; in terms of ‘total environmental dryness’ (includes all three: Aridity, Dewpoints, and Ground Moisture Content), the near equatorial Atacama Desert is actually even drier than both poles in general, although there is some debate regarding the Dry Valleys of Antarctica, which are virtually on par with the Atacama when all 3 criteria are factored in equally. Although the dry valleys in Antarctica have substantially lower average air dewpoint levels, the aridity and ground moisture content of the Atacama are much lower than the continental Antarctic; thus deeming both “perfect deserts” on our planet. One happens to be relatively hot in the Atacama, and the other is terribly cold in Antarctica, but both are Martian paradises for studying the red planet!

      • The Koppen classification is useless, I agree. So using the Penman-Monteith (eg. http://ponce.sdsu.edu/onlinepenmanmonteith.php), potential evapotranspiration (PET) at Eureka is about 20 mm/year. That’s not even close to being arid. By contrast, Ashcroft (with an average annual temperature of 9 to 10C BTW) has about 1,050 mm of PET per year. This leaves Ashcroft far, far more arid than Eureka.

  16. Les Robertson says:

    I do agree with Questioning Data The Koppen classification is useless. As are as science is concerned it has its place. Catherine Novis and her intellectual stupidity is entertaining. I,m not against education I have 2 daughters with M.D.in Medicine. I,m a college drop out by choice and proud of it. There is balance….. statistics and real conditions. These climate people forget the direct heat of the sun. Wind chill is another joke…. can be below freezing wind chill but water won,t freeze more later

    • Joe says:

      Agreed. What’s interesting is that plants aren’t affected by wind chill like humans are. About water not freezing by wind-chill is interesting. So if it’s 1c and a wind-chill of -5 water won’t freeze even in a little bucket?

  17. Joe says:

    To me a place with snow on the ground in mid January and July isn’t a Desert.

    • Catherine Novis says:

      Polar deserts have almost no precipitation…they are deserts, after all. They don’t have snow really, but whipped up ice and permafrost.

  18. Joe says:

    To me a place with snow on the ground in mid January and July isn’t a Desert.

  19. CAGEN says:

    It was actually I who said the Kloppen system was useless, not Questioning the Data, who chose it as his system of reference.
    It doesn’t really matter to me what people chose to believe, when the weight of evidence actually shows what I stated from the start.
    FYI – the driest place on earth is in the Antarctic – a polar desert.

    • I regret using the Koppen system in that reply because it has led to confusion. I was pressed for time at that moment, so just did a quick calculation. If you look at my followup reply AS WELL AS the actual article above, you will notice that Koppen is not the system used to discredit the arctic as a desert.

      Also, if Antarctic is a desert, why is the snow accumulating over time!? Answer: Because it’s not a desert! If it were a desert, EVAPORATION would outpace PRECIPITATION by a factor of 5, and that’s certainly not the case.

      • Catherine Novis says:

        You old charmer!
        Just when I go to leave you draw me back in with your wit & banter..

        One of the most extreme deserts in the world, these snow-free valleys harbour life, despite the hostile environment. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mcmurdo-dry-valleys

        The McMurdo Dry Valleys are a row of snow-free valleys in Antarctica region. It is one of the world’s most extreme deserts.
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Dry_Valleys

        The Dry Valleys are ice-free, or dry, because any precipitation that falls as snow on the valley floor is blown away by strong, dry katabatic winds, through the process of sublimation. The result is the Dry Valleys being cold, and one of the world’s most extreme deserts.
        https://oceanwide-expeditions.com/to-do-amp/experiences/experience-the-dry-valleys

        • Snow-free? Is that picture taken in summer or winter? Somehow I doubt it’s the middle of winter. Even still, it’s highly doubtful that it’s a true desert. ie. that evaporation is 5 times precipitation. I’m not saying it’s not because I don’t have weather data for that location, but I’m skeptical.

          • Catherine Novis says:

            I will take ownership for having opened conversation on this website in a somewhat inflammatory fashion. But I did really think soon afterwards that an intelligent exchange might ensue. However, despite having provided numerous academic articles and scientific publications, the only responses I have received from this website are unsubstantiated opinions and childish insults. I will let those remarks stand as both a reflection of, and testament to, those who wrote them. It would appear that those who read “Questioning the Data” are ironically people who don’t wish to question the data at all, but to mindlessly follow. Please, and I sincerely mean this: continue your lives in peace. If you treat me, a harmless stranger, this way, I can only imagine how you treat those who are close to you, who can truly get under your skin. My mistake (and perhaps Sir David Attenborough’s too, for his remarks on the Polar Deserts in his award-winning documentary).
            https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/smarter-living/why-its-so-hard-to-admit-youre-wrong.html?

    • Dave Parsons says:

      Hey Cagen, the Atacama Desert (near the equator) is actually on par with the dry valleys of Antarctica for the world driest place if all three components of: aridity, air moisture levels (dewpoints), and ground moisture presence, are factored in equally. Although the Atacama interior has ‘somewhat’ higher dewpoints than continental Antarctica; the Atacama is much drier in terms of both aridity and ground moisture content. This is the total environmental dryness of a location. But, both are Martian paradises for research on the red planet. One just happens to be relatively hot, and the other very cold! Mostly it’s atmospheric processes that contribute to and constitute the driest deserts on Earth, much more than mere temperature. Cheers.

    • Joe says:

      No the polar deserts are not. the Atacama is the driest most bone dry desert with not even micsroscopic life in some valleys.
      And even if the polar deserts were more dryer. Who cares? Hot deserts are much more interesting and travel freindly.

      • Dave. The 'Atacama' RULES. says:

        About the ATACAMA desert core Joe, buddy, I’m glad I could assist you to enlighten ‘Cagen’ (aka Catherine) into proper perspective! Hah! Don’t like them “networkians” eh? GO Accuweather!! Cheers.

      • Dave. says:

        Hello Again; I apologize to QTD, if my occasional obsessive passion may have just crossed an ethical boundary this most recent time. I will adhere to my more typical professional (and helpful) decor from here on out, when I chat or comment with you, Joe, and others. Again, I’m sorry. Have a nice evening.

  20. Joe says:

    Cagen it’s so cold in the polar deserts winter or summer it really is meaningless and hard to wrap our mind around the data. To us humans the Atacama Sonoran Namib and Sahara is liveable there even if sparsely but who on earth could survive in a frigid polar deserts wasteland of ice and snow. Can’t even imagine it. That’s why it’s irrelevant and meaningless to most humans even if there’s no precipitation yearly. To us it matters very little in our lives.
    Ashcroft or most any desert outside the poles has more significance and meaning for us living breathing people. That’s my take

  21. Catherine Novis says:

    It’s been fun, but I’m signing off. Have other things that require my time & attention,
    Cheers:-)

  22. Joe says:

    Catherine Novis go whip up yourself another frosty to keep that brain of yours under permafrost

    • Catherine Novis says:

      Wow, your logical and academically well informed retort has convinced me of the errors of my ways. I had never realised how childish insults can demonstrate true brilliance and insight. Thank you for this valuable lesson.

      • Joe says:

        Let me make it up to you with a nice Cold icy Smoothie.

        • Catherine Novis says:

          having opened conversation on this website in a somewhat inflammatory fashion. But I did really think soon afterwards that an intelligent exchange might ensue. However, despite having provided numerous academic articles and scientific publications, the only responses I have received from this website are unsubstantiated opinions and childish insults. I will let those remarks stand as both a reflection of, and testament to, those who wrote them. It would appear that those who read “Questioning the Data” are ironically people who don’t wish to question the data at all, but to mindlessly follow. Please, and I sincerely mean this: continue your lives in peace. If you treat me, a harmless stranger, this way, I can only imagine how you treat those who are close to you, who can truly get under your skin. My mistake (and perhaps Sir David Attenborough’s too, for his remarks on the Polar Deserts in his award-winning documentary).
          https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/smarter-living/why-its-so-hard-to-admit-youre-wrong.html?

  23. Joe says:

    Ok Catherine Novis on a serious note it seems like you didn’t read the evidence presented by questioning the data and Cagen and others then last week you snubbed us by stating you have better use of your time. Then you get upset when you get poked at?

  24. Catherine Novis says:

    Wasn’t snubbing anybody, and not really sure why anyone would be offended by my leaving the comments section. I do have other things that demand my time & attention, like a job (Acute Medical Nurse) and a family (3 children, one with special needs). I’m betting you have better things you could be doing with your time, too! Really, this is a regional opinion piece. But that doesn’t change the fact that evaporation is not a factor in defining Polar Deserts.
    Also, if you had actually read what CAGEN wrote, you’d recognise it was all in support of Polar Deserts. I am CAGEN.

    • There might be desert in Antarctic, but I don’t have to data to confirm or deny that. This article only deals with the Canadian situation, which, when we crunch the numbers reveals that Ashcroft is the most arid place in Canada (it has the highest moisture deficit in the country).

    • Dave. says:

      Hello Catherine; you have offered some wonderful insights here, and I’d like to add that although the ‘causation’ and ‘processes’ in various deserts based upon temperature are true, it must also be noted that for both extreme “hot and cold” deserts, the “end result” is that they are both profoundly dry, and equitably hostile. My name is Dave. I’ve commented on this poignant blog page as well! Have a lovely evening.

  25. Happy New year 2019 says:

    I am not positive the place you’re getting your info, however great topic.
    I must spend some time studying more or figuring
    out more. Thanks for great information I used to be on the
    lookout for this info for my mission.

  26. Lilly Fuller says:

    Cool (i didn’t read it 🙂

  27. Rayne FullerWhite says:

    Same

  28. Brigitta Bonn says:

    Where does the Carcross Desert/Yukon, Canada fit in with Osoyoos, Great Basin Desert , Mojave Desert and Sonoran Desert. Are the first 4 connected? Carcross is far away from the others.

    • The Sonoran Desert is in Mexico and extreme southern California-Arizona. Bordering that desert is the Mojave Desert which extends halfway up Nevada and California. Bordering that to the north is the Great Basin Desert which extends up to the Oregon border. There’s no connection between that and the semi-arid region in Washington and southern BC (Osoyoos an the like). There is an area in Washington State that is classified as arid that’s isolated from the deserts further south, but it does not extend up to Osoyoos (because Osoyoos is not a true arid desert).

      As for the Carcross Desert, that’s just a windswept sandy spot that someone named a desert. It’s not a desert in the technical sense, but it does garner tourists because someone arbitrarily named it the northernmost desert.

  29. Sunny says:

    Would you mind sharing a longer list of driest cities in BC? You’ve mentioned Spences Bridge, any other dry ones? Thanks

  30. Joe says:

    Any new findings on driest places in BC?
    Any new sunshine info on the sunniest places?

    How about where are the mildest spots in BC.
    There must be a hidden valley in south western bc or on the islands or on vancouver island in sheltered from all the cold winds which produces a super micro or nano climate.
    Theres supposed to be a 7b zone in ontario but cant find any info.

    • Dave says:

      One more very compelling fact as well Joe, the Atacama Desert’s remote interior has a location that is even drier than the McMurdo valleys in Antarctica. This is because, scientists recently discovered a new location that’s actually much drier than Yungay even. In the McMurdo valleys, biologists did discover microscopic life forms upon further examination, but in this newly discovered location in the Atacama, it is an -absolute sterile zone.-

      • Joe says:

        That aracama drier location intrigues me very much.
        So does low relative humidity.
        Where is the zone in BC and South Ontario with the lowest RH summer or winter?

        • Dave says:

          Hello Joe; how are you doing this evening? Yes, I am a substantial fan of low relative humidity as well.. the lower the better actually. Specifically I love the best (warmest, sunniest, driest) Canadian climate that we can find! More about that in a minute. A ‘Questioning the data’ officer mentioned that Ashcroft is the location with the lowest year round relative humidity (aka aridity index) in Canada, He/she went on to say that the deserts in the U.S. such as Nevada for example, are FAR more extreme than Ashcroft. Here are a couple of compelling (and likable facts): In the summer in Ashcroft, during heat waves, the afternoon Relative Humidity typically ranges between 12% and 18%. Even the dewpoints are quite low; they range between +2 degrees C and +6 degrees C most often. In other words, the ‘summer air’ in Ashcroft, is just as -dry- as the ‘mid-winter air’ on the BC west coast. On rare occasions, the summer dewpoint in Ashcroft can drop below the freezing mark. When they have temperatures of 38 C (or 100 F) in Ashcroft, a concurrent slightly below freezing dewpoint makes the relative humidity about 10%. Now here’s the kicker: There’s a place in Nevada near Las Vegas, that has a yearly average -mean- (daytime) relative humidity of just 9%. The average dewpoint for the year down there is incredibly (-10 degrees C); yes, that’s a “minus.” The town is called “Buddy Adams.” In other words Joe, this means that this place is essentially as dry as many Canadian locations (i.e. Edmonton AB) in the winter time –indoors!– Keep in mind, this is a warm to hot year round climate we’re talking about, so needless to say, the relative humidity numbers in Buddy Adams are absolutely meager. 5 percent RH is -common-, and 2 percent is not unheard of. The main point I’m establishing here, is that Ashcroft’s summer moisture level being on par with a “Vancouver January” is impressively dry enough, but, in Nevada my man…. deserts have moisture levels as low as –continental Canada– in January (although not the Arctic conditions), but as you can clearly see, this Nevada place has DRY HEAT. For the fun of it, IF the moisture level was Arctic winter-like, combined with, a 100 degree F -temperature,- this would create a relative humidity of “less than one %.” On rare occasions, Death Valley has recorded RH’s of just 1%, although I don’t know about -less than- 1%.. I’ll have to do some more research on that one Joe.

              Now to answer your other questions. Southern Ontario in the summer really, has NO place that comes even -remotely- close to being as arid as Ashcroft. For some statistics here:  Ashcroft's summer daytime (total average) RH is between 18 and 25 %, factoring in "cool spells." In Southern Ontario, no place has an 'average' daytime RH less than 40 % throughout the summer, and ironically, when it gets super sultry (humid) there, the RHs are between 60 and 70 % when it's a hot 35 degrees C! Talk about disgusting eh? In the winter time, Ashcroft is just as mild as Windsor Ontario on average, but of course, Ashcroft gets WAY LESS snow than anywhere in Southern Ontario. Interestingly too, the Ashcroft (Thompson) valley is actually quite a bit sunnier than the Okanagan Valley North of Kelowna, and a bit sunnier than Osoyoos in the South Okanagan. Finally as well, Ashcroft only gets -truly cold- for a few weeks every winter. Shoveling snow occurs on only 3 to 4 occasions during the average winter in Ashcroft. 6 inches of snow in total is typical. Some years may see almost NO snowfall! "Nice temperatures" occur in Ashcroft between 9 and 10 months of the year. The one downside I suppose, is that since the Ashcroft dewpoints are -not- "much different" between summer and winter actually; (pretty odd for a middle latitude location), the RHs are much, much higher in the winter; near 90% in the two cold months (Dec. and Jan.). The last punchline is that by -February- the daytime average temps. have climbed to plus 6 degrees C by the latter part of the month! So overall then, you can clearly see why Ashcroft residents say to Eastern Canadians: "Read 'em 'n weep." Cheers Joe, and have a great evening.
          

          PS: Yes, that location in the Atacama is a profoundly otherworldly spot eh? Yeah.

          PPS for Questioning the data officers: Now you know why weather network “culture advocates” hate me this much! Accu-weather scientists certainly tend to think ‘more like’ me. I have a ton of respect for them! I take the very concept of RH so -extreme- that it shows that climates ‘themselves’ are fundamentally different– i.e. range from very dry to humid along a spectrum; independent of co-existing temperature conditions… at least to a significant extent anyways. There seems to be a very specific paradigmatic ‘ideological’ discrepancy between Accu-weather and The Weather Network. Accu-W is also at least 20 times more massive as a corporation than is the weather network. It goes down to ”pop-science” verses “objective science.” Accu-w is the latter. Cheers.

          • Joe says:

            I suspect many of these world location sunshine hours.

            http://web.archive.org/web/20040401165322/http://members.cox.net/weller43/sunshine.htm
            Goodevening
            Thank you Dave for that awesome info.
            The reason why RH interests me so much is that i know what it feels like to work in humid conditions and it sucks. Even doing very little you sweat like a pig..lol
            Id rather be in a low humid environment esp in summer but also in winter.
            You should look at the humidity levels in southern iran or towns in the atacama. Extremely low less than 10percent constantly.

          • Dave. says:

            Hey Joe; just a quick little note to –caution– you that for a few weeks each August/September, places that are normally (for the large part of the year) extremely dry in the Southwest USA, Such as Las Vegas and Death Valley, with normal dewpoints well below freezing, can for short periods have substantially higher humidity levels because the “dryline” may -cross over- coming from the Southeast (moving Northwestward), thus carrying tropical ocean moisture ‘into’ parts of the desert! The reason I thought I should warn you about this, is because for the first time this year (the past 2 or 3 days), Las Vegas’s dewpoint has skyrocketed to -plus- 10 to 14 degrees C, and on the accuweather page, rightfully so, it says for the indoor humidity equivalent: “ideal humidity” or even “slightly humid” on a bad day. For many months –prior to this week– Las Vegas has had nothing but minus 5 to minus 10 Degrees Celsius dewpoints, and accuweather appropriately cited the indoor humidity, then, as ranging from “slightly dry” (at worst) to “very dry” (at best). Temperatures although have been over 100 Degrees from late April to August basically. This short, potential, unusually humid period in the Southwest is called the monsoon period. Although don’t freak Joe, because just a hundred miles farther up into the Nevada deserts, even -today- the dewpoints are still well below freezing with RH levels less than 10 percent each afternoon!! I thought I should give you this little “heads up” there my man, so you wouldn’t be disappointed if you happened to look at the “Las Vegas numbers” just after my long post earlier tonight! Staying ahead of weather network ‘culture’ is a calculated process! In regards to Accuweather again Joe, you should educate friends, family, and everyone you can reach about how superior they are to TWN! Hah! Have a good one buddy. Cheers.

          • Joe says:

            That place in Nevada sounds like my new Buddy Adams lol
            Ill have to check it out.
            I think anything in the 30percent range in summer id call an ideal rh if it gets too hot then 20 percent and lower would be more comfy right?
            Id love to visit the Atacama one day.

            Do you knof a specific location in vancouver island or mainland that has the most pleasant year round weather. With less rain less rainy days good enough weather to grow possibly citrus or subtropical plants..fewest arctic freak storms and protected by mountain barriers from cold blasts?

          • Dave. says:

            Hey again Joe; I first just wanted to say that I have enjoyed our occasional interactions on this awesome blog page buddy! (not adams, lol). I have really appreciated the way in which you systematically deconstructed all of “Cagen’s” arguments, as Catherine seems to not process one important reality: -Hot places- are just as ‘capable’ of being very dry as -cold places- (and vice versa of course).The only differences lie in the “processes” that lead to each! In the end, both the Atacama Desert core and The McMurdo valleys are profoundly dry, and make everywhere else; including -Buddy Adams- seem relatively damp. The new location not far from Yungay just happens to take the crown! Like I said, an “absolute sterile zone”… that just happens to lie near the equator. Next to answer your questions Joe– When it’s -really- hot (i.e. over 100 F, or, 38 C), there are fine lines between an RH substantially low enough for such an environment to be -as dry- as an indoor cold winter environment, OR, being high enough to be ‘slightly’ humid. Such stats are as follows: Here are 5 different levels of hot weather RH effects: We’ll start with the lowest and driest, and work our way up the scale to high humidity:— using a standard temp of 100 Degrees F (38 C).
            1. Less than 7 % (percent) RH: Air ‘feels’ truly bone dry, and has an otherworldly “lightweight” quality (THIN), and such air is –only– found in hot ‘true’ deserts. (This is the “indoor winter type” air per se). Lips and skin will be cracked etc. within 2 days or so.– 2. Between 7 and 20 % RH: Air still feels distinctively light, any very dry, but you won’t dehydrate quite as fast. At this level, lips and skin can “last” up to a week or longer before becoming problematic. (This is more like Ashcroft BC during heat waves). — 3. Between 20 and 40 % RH: Air is still ‘comfy’ at this level (aka Okanagan Valley BC heat waves), but has a “decided damper heaviness” to it that is noticeable if you’re a desert loving person. It does not feel “moist” to many people however still. You will have no issues with lips or skin dryness above 20 % RH at 100 F.– 4. Between 40 and 70 % RH: Air is now “moist feeling” to -everyone,- and at 100 F, would be miserably oppressive to virtually everybody who’s a “non-Floridian” etc etc. This is the Southern Ontario summer at it’s worst!– 5. Between 70 and 100% RH: Air is oppressively sultry, and is for “steam bath sauna loving” individuals ONLY. (And even for –them– NOT when working physically hard!!!) Welcome to Thailand during the rainy season.– Well finally Joe, the best answer I can give you as far as where to live in -Canada- that’s the best of everything, is “no one location” for the entire 12 month year, but an EASY ALTERNATIVE is the following: Live in Ashcroft for the 8 warmest months of the year; i.e. “March to November,” and on the extreme outer west coast of Vancouver Island (Tofino etc.) for the 4 coldest months; “December to March.” What you will “have here” is an ‘equivalent’ to a Genuine –Subtropical Climate– in CANADA… if you live in the BC desert for the warmer 8 months and in the BC temperate coastal rainforest for the 4 winter months (away from virtually any arctic air). By the way buddy, weather network “humidist culture” hates me, but I must tell you that –ACCUWEATHER– they are truly smart, objective, and professional people. It should be -their- site that you follow my man! They’ll even say, for example, on a given day in Las Vegas: “Indoor Humidity” (4% VERY DRY) on their hourly observations page. They’re also 20 to 25 times more massive of a corporation than is the weather network too! Have a great night Joe, and I look forward to hearing from you again soon. Cheers.
            PS: Ashcroft grows Peaches, Apricots, and Cherries, but for just 2 months (Dec. and Jan.) they watch them real close for frost damage. Tofino on the outer coast has –hardier PALM trees.–

          • It should be noted that peaches are not grown in Ashcroft because the winters are too cold. There’s an orchard 15 minutes south that does, but they often get a year without fruit because the winter was too severe. Cherries and apricots are fine, but peaches are touch and go.

    • Hi Joe, I’m not entirely sure what information you’re looking for, but I can tell you that Environment Canada basically shut down sunshine hours recording around 2001, so no new information there.

      The mildest spots in Canada would be on the extreme west coast of Vancouver Island and Haida Gwaii. The arctic air flows out from the interior and no one can escape that on the mainland especially.

      There are certainly many places in the interior that do get a lot of Chinook winds in the winter. eg. Nemiah and Tatlayoko Lake areas in the west Chilcotin.

        • It is important to remember that Canada and the US used two different methods to measure sunshine hours. The US method gives you an extra 100 to 200 hours.

        • Joe, the US uses a different system for recording sunshine hours, so it’s not simple to just add 100 or 200 hours. Canada stopped recording sunshine hours in about 2001, so no recent data, but looking at the data you posted you can look at Windsor, ON and Detroit (for eg.) and see that there’s about 300 hours more in Detroit. Between Seattle and Vancouver there are only about 100 hours more in Seattle.

          Basically, the Campbell-Stokes recorder Canada used needed bright sunshine, so if there was haze, smoke, light clouds, or late or early in the day, nothing would be recorded while it would be in the US.

      • Joe says:

        Thanks for the sunshine info. They probably shut down sunshine info because its a tedious and difficult process to gather that info. Alot of monitoring. But im sure there must be new technology out there that will make it easier to collect daily monthly and yearly sunshine much easier.
        Theres supposed to be weather satellites out there collecting sunshine data

        • When Trudeau the 1st was in power followed by Mulroney, the government of Canada spent money like drunken sailors (same was Trudeau the 2nd now), so the national debt became so unmanageable that Chretien had to make massive cuts to services including weather monitoring. Huge cuts were made in 1995 and 2001, and have never recovered.

  31. Dave says:

    Hello Joe; intriguing contemplation regarding a potential dry, Ashcroft-esque type hidden valley in the center of Vancouver island buddy! Like you said, away from any arctic influences in the winter, BUT, also away from any wet marine influences (from the Pacific itself) all year round! Such a valley would have a “near desert” climate that’s dry and warm, with essentially no winter! Hah! Then, desert loving western Canadians could -really- laugh in the face of weather “networkian” culture eh? They like to think that -air masses- are the only things that matter, and to hell with geography. Any intelligent person knows it doesn’t work that way; especially in the very diverse province of BC. Great thoughts Joe; but I candidly don’t know if such a perfectly ‘located’ valley exists. Cheers.

    • The Gulf Islands are relatively dry and mild. Not as dry as Ashcroft, but as dry as Vernon, and in the summer drier than anywhere else in Canada.

      • Dave says:

        Hello QTD; Does this mean that the Gulf Islands have the second lowest summer dewpoints in Canada behind only Ashcroft? Or are we talking about precipitation and/or relative humidity where the Islands are second driest? Ashcroft doesn’t record RH and Dewpoint numbers anymore since last year on Environment Canada’s page, but I recall the averages are quite low.

        Do you have any easily accessible stats for Las Vegas? I also did some more research and found that a town named ‘Buddy Adams’ in Nevada has very slightly lower dewpoints than Mercury Nevada does. Mercury’s yearly mean dewpoint I discovered after much digging is minus 9 degs Celsius; Buddy Adams is minus ten. Both locales have profound moisture deficits that are quite alien given the mild to hot year round temperatures I suppose.
        PS: In my last post, of course I didn’t mean the ‘planet’ Mercury ha ha.

        • Dave,

          I’m talking about precipitation. Lots of places get far more precipitation in summer than Ashcroft including Osoyoos, Lytton, and Victoria. When it comes to dew point and relative humidity, Ashcroft is lower than the others.

          I don’t have access to the American data, but the deserts down there are FAR more extreme than they are around Ashcroft.

      • Joe says:

        Thanks any particular island which is ghe warmest and driest of them all? Gabriola island?
        do you have a FB page?

      • Joe says:

        QTD thanks again for this post and allowing it to contine

        Would that be dry in RH or dry as in lack of rain or both?

        Do they get dry winter weather due to west coast rainshadow from the big island?

        Would those east coast islands escape the arctic blasts coming in from the mainland?

        I got some very interesting info about southeast vancouver island. Did you know its within the Olympic Mountains shadow?

      • Joe says:

        Check this site out too bad only a small area of the mildest area of bc falls within this area

        http://www.olympicrainshadow.com/olympicrainshadowmap.html

    • Joe says:

      Totally agree. Geography can greatly mitigate weather. Like for example on side of a hill at 100 200 meters above sea level is milder at night than at bottom of a valley where the cold air sinks down and damages sensitive plants.
      Micro and Nano climates intrigue me alot too.
      There must be dozens of them in sw bc and on the island only problem is that constant rain on the west part of the island and in southern bc.
      Theres a very intriguing fact i stumbled accross on the net that affects seast vancouver island that i never heard anyone talk about. The Olympic mountains shadow

      http://www.olympicrainshadow.com/olympicrainshadowmap.html

      Too bad couldnt be bit farther south and have 16 inches yearly

      • Dave. Lillooet's the very best of everything Joe. says:

        Hi Joe; I’ve done some research on a place in Southwest BC called Lillooet. Since the type of climate you are looking for specifically is one with the best of all features in all seasons balanced out, you can’t do better than Lillooet. Summers are hot, as well as dry, with both low rainfall, and low RH; not quite as dry as Ashcroft (but almost). It has a growing season that’s 7 1/2 months long, and even Osoyoos is just 7 months (I used to think Osoyoos took the crown). The winter snowfall is meager, even less snow than both Ashcroft and Osoyoos. 6 inches total snowfall is all Lillooet receives in a typical winter. Importantly, there’s less wind than in Ashcroft and Kamloops, especially in mid-winter! They can grow peaches, cherries, and apricots in Lillooet comfortably, and since the QTD officer said that Ashcroft is just a little too cold in the winter for peaches in most years, Lillooet is definitely enough milder to be comfortable with peaches. In terms of Arctic outbreaks, Lillooet enjoys the least of any place (away from the coast itself), because there’s an extra mountain barrier ‘west of’ Ashcroft that provides additional protection. Winter rainfall is -way- less than on the coast anywhere, even including the Cascade shadow locations. Finally Joe, the very hardiest breeds of palm trees can do OK in Lillooet easily for 9 months of the year;- however in the 3 coldest months of Dec. Jan. and Feb., if special attention is given, they can survive year round. Winter sunshine hours are the highest of anywhere in BC west of Revelstoke. I believe this just might be the place for you to move to when the time is right. I hope this helps! Have a great evening.

        Cheers, Dave.

        • Joe says:

          Hi Dave thanks very much. I will definitely check it it out.
          What did you think of the Olympic shadow link

          • Dave. says:

            Hey Joe; I haven’t looked at the Olympic shadow link yet, but I certainly will in the next couple days or so. I’ll get back to you soon about that! Much appreciated. Glad you liked the info. about Lillooet. It’s a pretty awesome place eh? Enjoy a super evening. Cheers.

        • Lillooet is by FAR the least snowy places in the BC interior, and is certainly much more mild in the winter than Ashcroft. However, it does get quite a lot of wind. Not nearly as bad as Lytton, but more than Kamloops or Ashcroft (it’s a north-south valley). Now, if you were to get out of the main valley, and live 15km away in Seton Portage, you get all the benefits of Lillooet plus no wind.

          • Dave. says:

            Thanks a Million QTD officer! Wow, Seton Portage sounds much like one of those perfect “nano-climates” that Joe talks about; and sounds phenomenal. I bet it’s even a 9 1/2 month hardy palm tree supportive area (Lillooet 9 months). Have a lovely evening. Cheers.

          • Joe says:

            Thank you Sirs.
            Im not a fan of constant strong winds.
            Going to look at Buddy Adam town in nv.
            Just looked up Mercury nv. its pretty impressive with below 10 percent rh every day or night.
            I googled Maria Elena Town Chile weather. what a dry place. Even tho the temps are 27max and 9minimums.
            Can you beleive there are people growing citrus outdoors in BC?

            Good evening

          • Dave. says:

            Hi Joe; How are you doing this evening buddy? I took an in depth look at the Cascade shadow zone, and the process that was used to define the epicenter, and the boundaries etc., seems not entirely unlike the determination of the “Palliser Triangle” in SE Alberta and SW Saskatchewan; which is a zone of continental semi-aridity in the western prairies. About the Cascade rain shadow region now, what I see here I could comfortably postulate as this region being a “damper and less extreme” -version- of Lillooet (or Seton Portage). In virtually every other way, Victoria is pretty well a mirror image of the Lillooet climate…. except that Victoria is damper, and less seasonally defined than Lillooet. Both places have “near desert low” rainfall. Bottom line though Joe, they are both exceptional places to live in Canada; and after learning from QTD that Seton Portage’s nano-climate has very little wind, it is likely the very best of the best! After brief contemplation about QTD’s statement regarding Seton Portage, it seems to me that 2 things about them are different from Lillooet: 1. Seton Portage is an East/West oriented valley, instead of South/North, and 2. it is an even “narrower trench” than is the Fraser Canyon (where Lillooet lies). I’m going to inquire with QTD about these suspicions of mine. Ultimately however, if it was me making a decision about where to live, I would attempt to live the 9 warm months in Liilooet (or Ashcroft), and the 3 winter months in Victoria (or Tofino), with 2 homes if possible. Have a great night Joe! Hope this helps.

          • Dave. says:

            Hello QTD officer; how are you this evening? I had a follow up contemplation about the geographical alignment of the trench that Seton Portage lies within. First, how closely could Seton Portage’s lack of wind, rival that of Vernon BC? I wonder this because it seems that Vernon is one of the ‘calmest’ places in -all- of Canada due to their fairly unique geographical location at the center of 4 converging valleys; one from each direction. Secondly, as I suggested to Joe as a possibility, does the Seton Portage “offshoot” trench lie in a more East/West Orientation, and, is it an even narrower trench than the ‘quite narrow’ trench that Lillooet lies within? This pair of circumstances would particularly explain the lack of wind in Seton Portage. Finally, due to the elevation of Seton Portage being a couple hundred feet higher than Lillooet, this is why I additionally wondered if Seton Portage’s hardy palm tree season might even be a bit longer than Lillooet’s, (9 months vs. 9 1/2 months) due to the pooling of cold air in Lillooet at night in the winter, whereas it may flow downhill and away from Seton Portage? Enjoy the rest of the evening. Thank you very much.

  32. Dave says:

    Thank you very much for the insights. Also too, a desert place called Mercury Nevada, although hot most of the year, is actually nearly as dry, in terms of the dewpoints, as the typical winter level in many Canadian locations! (Average yearly dewpoint in Mercury: minus 9 degrees Celsius). Unbelievable isn’t that? Even Ashcroft is a ‘rain forest’ compared to much of Nevada near Vegas. It’s little wonder that the relative humidity numbers are truly meager in Mercury. Five percent is quite common, and two percent is not unheard of. Great place for arthritis, but horrible for lips and skin. Temps over 100 Degrees F are common in the summer as well. Finally, shutting down sunshine hours?? Sounds like Weather Network influence on Environment Canada! Have a good evening.

  33. Ian Fetherston says:

    The REAL driest place in bc

    Spoiler. It’s NOT Ashcroft
    This place has the most cactus in bc… and the largest
    There’s no weather station here but there are some giveaways to just how dry Churn creek really is.
    I’ve been to this micro climate twice in January.
    First time 12 years ago I drove up the Fraser canyon to Lillooet and then to Clinton and back to Churn creek
    Lillooet had about 8 inches snow plus the Fraser was not frozen over
    Churn creek only had about 1 inch snow plus the Fraser was completely frozen over
    I was there a second time in January 7 years ago and a similar situation
    4-5 inches in Spencer’s bridge and again illy 1-2 inches in churn creek
    I was back again in May a couple years back and it was raining throughout all southern B.C including Thompson river valley
    When I got to Churn creek it was partly sunny with just a small area around me a few miles wide
    that clouds would literally break up and reform on the other side of the Fraser
    I was there for 2 days with no rain
    When I left it poured from canoe creek all the way to Langley.
    .

    • I'm glad my e-mail is set for notification about this blog's posts! Dave. says:

      First of all Ian wonderful stuff; it’s only because my e-mail page is calibrated to give me ‘notifications’ about this blog, that I would have even seen your comment here, with being out of touch at this time of year due to my professional academic career. Well, I suppose the so called “debate” about whether or not Canada has any “true” warm climatic deserts has just been settled– actually obliterated, in favor of the ‘yes’ answer! This is why: Ashcroft, by two separate climate systems, provided here by the QTD officers last year, has been unequivocally shown to classify as true warm desert (although just barely). It seems that Canoe Creek might be 30 % drier in terms of precipitation than Ashcroft by estimation, making Canoe Creek full desert by a cosmic light year (about 5-6 inches) average total. Does this sound about right to you Ian? Although this area is probably the one that QTD said some time ago, that someone fool hardily suggested received only TWO inches of annual precipitation, or less than Death Valley CA, it probably -does- only receive 5 or 6 inches. Another place that might interest you for “total climate quality” is Seton Portage, which is near Lillooet (but even better). This sheltered East/West oriented off-branch of the Fraser Canyon has all the benefits of Lillooet; but with very little wind! It’s summers are typically hot and dry (almost as low RH as Ashcroft), and the growing season is very long (7 1/2 months). The winters are short and mild, where with special attention, hardy breed palm trees can do ok. They receive the most winter sunshine west of Revelstoke. Churn Creek sounds, overall, just as good or better than Seton Portage! A gentleman named Joe I corresponded with this past summer, would likely be most intrigued by this revelation. Anyways, next spring after the academic year is over, and I can get back to my “amateur love”– climate/weather, I’ll have to check this location out. Any website that I see again, that attempts to adamantly refute that Canada has a true warm desert -now- I will have to report to law enforcement. Just kidding. Have a good one Ian. Cheers, Dave.

      • Joe says:

        Only problem with Churn Creek is theres no towns or cities for hundreds of kms and no info on winter temperatures with it being at 51.441°N

        • Dave. says:

          Hello Joe; It’s been a while buddy! I hope you have been keeping well my friend. Churn Creek’s latitude is very similar to both Ashcroft and Cache Creek. It’s only slightly North of these locations latitude wise. Given that it’s a super nano-climate similar to Seton Portage (which of course is a most of the year round gem), I have no cause to suspect that the winter temperatures be any different from these other places. I’d guess that for 10 months of the year anyways, Churn Creek is a warm desert climatic paradise, with just 2 cold months– (but no colder than Ashcroft). Churn Creek is apparently therefore, an even drier version of Ashcroft, with a similar year round temperature profile. I hope this helps!!

          Have a great evening Joe.

          PS: my e-mail function device let me know a comment was posted here.

    • Joe says:

      Thanks Ian interesting information

    • Joe says:

      At 51.441°N in Churn Creek the winter temperatures would be pretty cold would it not even if they hardly get any rain or snow.
      Just wondering

      • Dave. says:

        Hello Joe; things are good buddy! Thanks very much for asking! At this time of the year, I largely have to give up the “good search” for new climatic gems because of my job. I will most certainly be back at it next spring! Until then keep well, and have a very merry Christmas my friend!

        Cheers, Dave.

  34. Erik says:

    Great blog post.
    We moved to Ashcroft in July 2015. By, the middle of September, it had rained at least 18 times. !

    Having crossed the Sahara desert and having travelled a few parts of the Atacama desert in South America (which I highly recommend), Ashcroft ain’t no real desert, but the semi-arid Sage Brush steppe in the lower parts of the Thompson River valley is wonderful sight to behold.

    Even in the hottest part of the summer, there is always 6 hours of cool, comfortable weather first thing in the morning (4AM to 10AM). In the shade at 32C, for example, the air is so dry, it is very comfortable. Shush… don’t tell anybody.

    • Dave. says:

      Hello Erik; Both the Sahara and Atacama deserts are “hyper-arid” desert, being a completely different class of climate from “regular; but true” deserts. It is the latter that Ashcroft’s immediate vicinity just barely classifies for. So yes, compared to the Sahara and Atacama– Ashcroft IS INDEED “no real desert!” But yes, I do –love– the DRY AIR, especially compared to Southern Ontario. Hah!

      Cheers to Joe as well! If you receive this; how are things buddy? My semester just wrapped up, and am back into my amateur love now!

      • Joe says:

        Hi Dave good to hear from you.
        Bc is an oven this summer.
        Someplace must have hit over 50c in the shade

        • Dave says:

          Joe my man, it’s good to hear from you as well buddy. Did you have a good winter? What have you been up to these days? Oh yes; our own back yard has been like the searing Sahara this past week eh?! Ashcroft’s official high was 48.2 C (or 48.7 C) 119 F — one or the other; but I candidly cannot remember! I guess the dry heat must be incinerating my brain no doubt. Hah! I have another astounding stat to share with you and Erik; even here IN VERNON the RH dropped to 13% at one point last week, and was consistently under 20% during the daytime hours for three consecutive days. That is absolutely =unheard of= in these parts, and such low humidity is only characteristic of Ashcroft actually. Normally Vernon is up in the high 20s% or low 30s% The reason this occurred -I believe- is that the sinking, subsidizing air from the behemoth high pressure system was ‘outpacing’ the evaporation off of our big warm lakes here in Vernon, which can greatly modify desert source air to become more humid; (and cooler of course too). This crazy subsidence effect was keeping the air exceptionally dry. The extreme high temperatures also contributed to driving the relative humidity down as well. The dewpoints remained mostly “unchanged” from the normal weather levels– if anything, they were a bit lower (around plus10 C). Just for reference, plus 3 to 8 C is common for Ashcroft. Have an awesome evening my friend, it feels great having a slower pace from work over the summer!

          Cheers, Dave.
          PS: there were NO official 50 C temps. officially sorry to say. Lytton just missed by less than half a degree I believe.

          • Joe says:

            Winter went by fast thankfully.
            Great to hear from you too.
            Glad your working and school went smoothly.
            These torrid temps in bc are really great topic of conversation now.
            That low RH is insanely low for vernon they are of vegas and iranian desert porportions.

            Here in ontario muggy rainy humid lethargic feeling days..highest we reached is about 34 with 40 plus humidity. I wanted the 50c you guys got lol

          • Dave says:

            Hey there Joe, I hope you’re enjoying a good day. Yes, in regards to Muggy Ontario I absolutely hear you bud. I guess about us out here in good Ol’ BC, you can keep on dreaming eh? Ha Ha. I’m just joking of course! I couldn’t agree more, that you -belong- out here my man, or perhaps even in the Atacama someday possibly too. For Lytton though, yes, it was an overwhelmed heart breaking tragedy. I suppose that’s the one downside to living in a relatively dry climate as well. I do say that Erik is the most fortunate of the 3 of us to live in Ashcroft, as even in Vernon here, it is usually substantially more humid than Ashcroft despite the short 2 hour drive between– although nothing like Southern Ontario of course. Even in the climate changing world there still is remarkable consistency of climate in ‘many’ places. The new age mongers just like to focus on atmospheric dynamics alone, and say to hell with climatological relativism. I wholly agree with Erik on this matter. Have a good one Joe.
            Cheers, Dave.

    • Joe says:

      Sounds like you made a mistake. Lol

      • Erik says:

        yeah….. The days on end of wildfire smoke hanging in the air does wear thin after a while. We were getting smoke from 3 different directions and at one point 6 or more separate fires.

        Not good, especially for the older folks in town who suffer from COPD.

        Crossing the fingers …. in 2 days from now, the smoke will be gone. Heavy rain yesterday evening, the 3rd and heaviest rainfall to date since the heat and the fires started

        • Joe says:

          Meant too bad it rained 18 days from june to sept. Sounds very unusual

          • Erik says:

            Not unusual. By that I mean not unusual for folks to misname stuff and form unrealistic expectations.

            Variable weather in BC is normal.

        • Joe says:

          Hi Erik
          Its not the unusual expectation but looking at the surrounding area semidesert conditions with high mountains surrounding south central bc one would expect very little rain getting through because of the rainshadow and surprised, especially because summers are supposed to be dry.

          • Erik says:

            The area is semi-arid, not a desert as many claim. It can rain often in semi-arid areas.

            Indeed, the summers in BC are supposed to be drier. Drier, not dry.

            The summers can be wet ( or is that wetter?) and complicate getting dry hay off the fields, for example.

            In passing, I do lament how many seemed to have only discovered variable weather in the wake of the climate change movement. It leads to a lot of ridiculous rhetoric that tends to alienate those who are sceptical and might have a longer view of things. I say this as a person who believes we should take anthropogenic climate disruption very seriously — with out the Suzuki/Trump-like rhetorical nonsense.

            In the meantime, please note that I am dead and so are you. Why? Because the great David Suzuki said we would be dead by now. The Canadian Green party was predicting we would be all dead in 20 years from now in the last federal election.

        • Joe says:

          Erik what really irks me nowadays is that every single heatwave or bad storm is all caused by climate change. We are in freaking summer.
          Summers are usually hot everywhere and in some places more than elsewhere. Interior bc is jhotter than most of canada. The southwest USA is hot most of the year. Some years its cooler than others thats how it always is thru history. Some summers are wetter than others.

        • Joe says:

          Heat in the Northern Rockies and Prairies.
          Fruit cooking wheat also affected

  35. Pingback: Hello from the Real Sonoran Desert – TRU Collector

  36. Joe says:

    Hi what you all think about the new Canadian heat records set in Lytton
    48 and 50celsius in BCs desert region

    • Joe says:

      Insane heat this summer. That dome was amazing. Too bad lytton burnt to the ground

    • Erik says:

      I spent half a decade of errant youth travelling, much of that in tropical climes and never once experienced 47 and 48C. These temperatures are unprecedented, at least in modern post-contact history.

      In passing, Lytton has experienced 7 fires since inception. It is surrounded by semi-arid forest but this one apparently started in town. Many are pointing at CN Rail but even if a car did catch fire, it is not yet clear that a freight train was responsible.

      It is unfortunate to see the village of Ashcroft act in a hyper-vigilant hysterical manner. But I suppose when the natural world is experienced through the windshield of an automobile and the general understanding of convection air movements hovers near zero, unfounded fear should be expected.

      • Dave. says:

        Hey Erik; I hope you are doing well, and are enjoying living in Ashcroft. I have one question; you had said recently that you had travelled far and wide across the Sahara, and even had a sojourn to the Atacama! I’d love to see that sometime. When you say “tropical” climates, do you mean latitude wise, i.e. the Sahara or Atacama, or have you also spent time in true tropical high humidity climes as well? About last weeks heat; did it remind you even remotely of Saharan heat? (I guess time of year has something to do with that as well). Have a good evening.
        Cheers, Dave.

      • Joe says:

        From what all the news stations reported heard more than 90 percent of the city burnt down.
        Thats a huge tragedy.
        Next time they should build with stone and brick not wood save the virgin forests

  37. Erik says:

    Dave, Joe, et al.,

    18 July 2021 The smoke is not heavy but continues to be omni-present here in Ashcroft. The Tremont Creek/Glossy Mountain fire has been spreading to the northeast or north-north-east. The smoke has generally been going north (as visible from our house). It is the Lytton Fire Complex that continues to send smoke north and north-east and provides smoke in the village while winds from the southeast are clear. “Complex.” In this context, that is an intimidating term.

    Joe: On the one I agree, that it is most unfortunate so many people are interpreting all weather and climate variability as anthropogenic caused. I spent the summer of 1975 working on a cow-calf ranch in the East Kootenays and was immediately introduced to BC weather variability. It was so wet that we had trouble getting the hay of the field.

    So many, including people in rural areas, have become increasingly alienated from the natural world. Intermountain valley air movements and convection currents do not appear to be on the BC high school curriculum. Perhaps the implicit assumption is that basic applied physics is not really that important. A geological perspective of the modern world appears absent.

    The upshot is people who become hysterical with fear when near wildfires but seem to view tobacco, alcohol and automobiles as familiar, family friendly ways we hurt ourselves and others.

    On the other hand, when I spent those years travelling tropical latitudes, I never once encountered weather as hot as what we just experienced in BC. Never. Moreover, I have never chatted up an elder in BC (colonial settler descendant, FN, anybody) who talked about these kinds of temperatures. That gets me thinking that perhaps anthropogenic climate disruption is indeed in play here. In the background, there is the ‘blob’ in the Pacific Ocean and migratory salmon marine survival has plummeted from SE Alaska right down the coast to northern California.

    Please note that there are all kinds of good health, economic and national security reasons to reduce per capita oil consumption long before we get to the climate issue. Decades ago, some pundits tried to promote emissions reduction as part of a No regret climate policy. Nobody payed attention.

    You would think that some of these arguments would resonate in the the wake of the SARS2 pandemic as clearly health outcomes matter. Unfortunately I see little or no evidence of that.

    In the meantime, we are doing fine here in Ashcroft though I imagine many are chaffing at the bit to spend more time outdoors or travel. A neighbour friend who suffers from industrial toxic-induced COPD is hurting. Mind you he still smokes tobacco cigarettes……

    • Dave. says:

      Hello Erik; I hope you are enjoying a good evening. My family and I feel terrible about the smoke that many people in the BC interior are having to endure ongoing. You are absolutely correct about geography and micro-climatology seeming to take a backseat to the new age “binary oppositional thinking” that only airmasses are relevant, and this unfortunately infiltrates the postmodern ideology and paradigm, at least in the weather network’s culture. Small scale physical processes needs to be reasserted in school curriculums, as well as brought back into the adult collective consciousness. Oversimplified binarist thinking by its very nature deconstructs the need for critical thought. The other social issues you touched upon resonate very poignantly with our family and friendship circle as well. Very poor management from decades past has been a strong factor in the tragic results we’re coping with today. The economy and drive to create wealth have indeed anthropogenically impacted the atmosphere. But climate relativism and micro effects will always play a large role in the total picture. I agree, this needs to be taught explicitly once again.

      Hey Joe; how are you doing buddy? I hope that all is going well, and that you will relocate to BC when the time is right! Have a good one my man.

      Cheers guys, Dave.

  38. Joe says:

    Hi All,
    did you hear about the frigid temperatures that hit kelowna victoria lake tatylako and most of bc end of september? Its Below normal for end of september dont you think?
    Meanwhile farther east is Saskatchewan they were getting record temps of 34c plus.

  39. Les Robertson says:

    Those microclimates in BC mean little in that they are very local and do not cover a large area. They do make interesting reading.. Been to Lillooet many times go up or down a few feet or meters if you like or around the corner of the valley and you have different conditions.

  40. Jodi Oliver says:

    Good Day, I am looking for climates in Canada that have on average less than 40% humidity year round. Do you know where I might find that information? Would the chart you have included in the above article encapsulate that for me? Thanks!

    • Dave Parsons says:

      Hello Jodi; I could offer a couple of insights, in that during the hot summer months when low humidity is relatively important for comfort, the Thompson desert corridor, which runs from Kamloops on the Eastern boundary to Lillooet on the Western flank, has remarkably low humidity levels during heatwaves. During 30 degree Celsius plus days, the humidity on your average typical day is between 15 and 25 percent. In the central core area (Canada’s only true desert) in Ashcroft, sometimes the level can drop below 10 percent into the single digits, prompting heavy usage of chap stick and moisturizing creams due to the extreme dryness; especially if you’re from a humid region like Southern Ontario where 65 to 70 percent is common during their heatwaves. This is a massive difference also in how much more comfortable you are in the very dry heat– IF you don’t mind the cracked lips, and the stark desert scenery too! Finally of note, and interest is that out here the Thompson area, it’s actually during cooler summer periods when the humidity is substantially -higher- around 35 to 40 percent on those cooler 20 degree Celsius days. In the other 3 seasons too, there’s virtually nowhere that has humidity below 40 percent, but, 40 is a nice level when the temperatures are cool (spring and fall), with daytime highs in The Thompson desert corridor being a gorgeous 15 degrees in April and early October as well. For city size, Kamloops is the biggest with around 150, 000 population and has the most amenities outside of Vancouver, which incidentally is cool in the summer, and much more humid (70 %) My name is Dave, and I hope this has been of assistance Jodi! Cheers, and the best of luck in finding your happy forever place.

      • Dave Parsons says:

        Hey Jodi; just one more thing, of great importance; the Thompson desert corridor only has about -three months- of colder winter temps., in short, nine months of the year is by and large “nice” weather. In the short winters too, only light snowfall occurs in the desert near Ashcroft! Have I sold you on a move yet buddy?? Have a good one.

        • Jodi Oliver says:

          Thanks, Dave, we’re in Newfoundland where 70-90% humidity most of the year is not uncommon and I’m quite tired of it, my joints hurt! I do MUCH better in dry heat. My husband is more inclined towards Kelowna, Calgary or even Edmonton or Saskatoon, but Kamloops sounds like the winner (for year-round aridity!) to me! We both work remote jobs now and can go anywhere there’s good internet. Exciting times! Thanks for your reply!

          • Dave Parsons says:

            Awesome Jodi. Just for the fun of it; Death Valley desert in the Western U.S.A. had a -preposterously- low ONE Percent humidity, and a 45 degree Celsius temp. one afternoon recently!!! LOL eh? That’s like Martian dryness combined with searing oven heat. Could you imagine??!! Have a good one guys!

          • Jodi Oliver says:

            We drove through Death Valley (Route 66) in the summer of 2010. I loved it, but we sure didn’t want the car to break down! I felt amazing in Arizona and Nevada. Utah was pretty great, too.

          • Erik says:

            In Alberta, one deals with Arctic winds blowing south and if one is lucky, Chinook winds in the winter that warm and blow an incredible amount of dust and other crap in the air. Alberta is stunningly beautiful but the climate…..

            British Columbia winters in the interior of the province can be grey, i.e., covered in cloud for long stretches. The Thompson-Fraser semi-arid corridors that Dave describes tend to be less grey than elsewhere in the interior. Winters are definitely mild by Canadian standards.

            Where we live near the Thompson River, I hike the hills 12 months of the year. Carbide-tipped hiking poles make winter and shoulder-season hiking doable and safe. Cross country skiing trails are available within a 50 minute drive.

            The hot summers are relatively easy to manage. From 4AM to 10 or 11AM, the temperatures and then once again in the evening, in the shade, it is incredibly comfortable with temperatures varying between 28C and 32C precisely because the air is so dry and because convection air winds keep it moving.

            Another option for warm and dry is Cranbrook in the East Kootenay district of SE BC. The Rocky Mountain trench lies in the rain shadow of the Purcell mountains. Four hours drive to Calgary.

            Newfoundland, eh? Can live and work anywhere? If I had to guess…. I would guess that you would love living in Lillooet on the Fraser River. The location is stunning.

            Kamloops weather is nice. The city is growing very quickly and it is not self-propel (walk, bicycle) friendly as the city is intersected and divided by highways. On the other hand…. there are some nice grassland areas to both the north and south of Kamloops. Living near those areas might be an idea.

            To the east of Kamloops lies the small city of Chase. It is not as hot and as arid but I have heard some good things about this town. Close to the TransCanada highway, a short drive from Kamloops and close the Shuswap Lake and Adams River area. The sockeye spawning run in the Adams River is spectacular. Large Chinook also ascend the river.

    • No place in Canada has an average humidity of less than 40%. The humidity in the dry southern interior of BC has very high humidity in the winter (they get the valley cloud that keeps the sun out much of December and January). Relative humidity in Ashcroft, Penticton, etc. in December is 85 to 90%.

      The lowest humidities in Canada in the winter can be found in southern Alberta, say like around Lethbridge. In BC that would be the central interior such as the Chilcotin plateau.

      Both of the above mentioned areas are also quite dry in the summer in terms of humidity, but Alberta does have more moisture in the air in the summer than BC does. And it gets wetter as you go east from there.

      Here is a graph showing average relative humidities at various places in Canada…. https://forums.castanet.net/download/file.php?id=61163&mode=view

      • Dave Parsons says:

        I think you’ll find, as does Jodi apparently, that only in the hot summer months is extremely low relative humidity “important per se” for comfort, and that the spring and fall in Kamloops/Ashcroft are exceedingly nice (16 C temp) with moderate RH in those seasons (daytime 35 %) type thing. As Eric pointed out, even in the winter, the Thompson desert/semi-arid corridor we’ll call it Eric (to be accurate and fair), has -less- low cloud etc. than most other interior locations. Given that the Thompson winter is only 3 months long (most years), Who really cares if you only have 3 months of high RH values (the dewpoints are still pretty low), and colder temperatures, right?? Let’s be honest here, in Canada you can’t “have it all ways” year round, correct? 9 months in the Thompson region however is a “most of the year” dry climatic paradise. Just go down to Death Valley or Arizona for the 3 months of winter if you prefer. I’m just glad I could help out Jodi and her partner. Thanks. Cheers.

        • Jodi Oliver says:

          I’m going to be living in an RV so we can sample all the places! And see what works best. Thanks, Dave!

        • Joe says:

          Hi Dave. How you been buddy? Its been a crazyy 3 years. What new gems have yiu found out in BC lately

          • Dave Parsons says:

            Joe my man! How great to hear from you buddy! Has it really been 3 years?? I kind of knew it had been awhile; at least a year and a half. Anyways Joe, I have been keeping very well, especially working towards a Masters Degree in interdisciplinary studies at my university. You know, I honestly haven’t been researching a lot in the climatology domain recently, BC or otherwise! I’ve just been really busy with other academic domains these days. Who knows though, I just may get back into my search for BC ‘gems’ as it was for some time a subject that you and I held a monopoly of great interest towards eh?! Thanks very much for contacting me Joe, and you have a super summer buddy. I’ll talk to you again before long. Cheers!
            Best, Dave.

        • Joe says:

          Good to hear your university is going well. Glad your still around. Yeah we love the same side subjects on climate

  41. Erik says:

    Apologies for the garbled writing . Meant to write that during summer, 4AM to 10 or 11AM is typically cool and comfortable.

  42. Erik says:

    I just rapidly reviewed this thread. There is much excellent information for lifestyle migrants looking for the ideal or ‘better suited’ micro-climate in British Columbia. A couple of things.

    The pall of smoke in the Fraser and Thompson River valleys lasted over 7 weeks in the summer of 2021. Ashcroft was never in any serious danger of burning up. But man oh man, does that smoke get tedious. Anybody here ever mow the lawn wearing a p100 filter mask?

    My hope is that so much fuel has been burned that large wildfires are far less likely going forward. BC no longer practises fire suppression unless infrastructure and people are in danger.

    It looks like the Tremont Creek/Glassy Mountain fire moved northeast (as expected), then east (as expected) and near Tunkwa Lake managed to travel south, hop across the wide hydroelectric transmission line clearing and come within a short distance of the town of Logan Lake. Logan Lake was well prepared so ultimately no danger there other than lots of smoke and the fear of being close to an active wildfire.

    I know this area (Logan Lake, Tunkwa Lake, all SW of Kamloops) but not that well. I was surprised that the fire moved aggressively in a southerly direction. I do not pretend to understand the daily convection air movements and suspect that the fire itself may have created the winds that pushed the fire south.

    Then the torrential rains of mid-November 2021. The Coquihalla River tore through the 4-lane bridge on the highway of the same name just upstream of Hope like it was cardboard. The damage to road and rail infrastructure in lower the Thompson River canyon, the Fraser Canyon, the Nicola River and the Coldwater River in and near Merritt was a sight to behold.

    As an aside, the lower Nicola River near Spences Bridge is where Atom Egoyan shot his The Sweet Hereafter film starring Ian Holm, Sarah Polley, and Bruce Greenwood. Great film. Highly recommended.

    This 2022 spring marks the wettest, coolest spring/early summer I have experienced in the interior of British Columbia and that includes a few years living in both the West and East Kootenay districts. Thankfully this radically reduces the probability of another unpleasant wildfire summer.

  43. Erik says:

    Other BC micro-climates….

    Chilcotin Plateau. I love the Chilcotin area in the rain shadow of the Coastal mountains. It is stunningly beautiful. In particular, I recommend visiting Chilko Lake.

    Truth be told, I am a bit of a fan of the First Nation folks who live in and near the Nemaiah valley. The Xeni Gwet’in band of the Tsilhqot’in people. I support the way they are defending their traditional territories but are still gracious enough to allow visitors.

    Is there a village or town located in the Chilcotin plateau where one can get high-speed internet access and perhaps a couple of other urban amenities? 🙂 Williams Lake is too far to the east.

Leave a reply to CAGEN Cancel reply